Curse

Skyy High · Dec 09, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

The thing is, SF is the best way to do 90% of the high end content in the game, and little else comes close. By "the best" I obviously am not talking about what organized guilds can use to blaze through dungeons quickly, I'm talking about its ability to just get through a theoretically difficult dungeon with little to no danger of failure once you've mastered the build, which should take you all of an hour if you're slow. Its power is far out of line with the skill necessary to play it, and in order to meet or match it with pretty much any other build you need to be at the top of your game, and it'll probably still be more difficult than just using SF.

That is the problem; in a game so based around skill choice and builds, to have one build, usable by one class, be so much better than everything else is completely against what GW is supposed to be about. Yes, the existence of SF doesn't nuke every other class directly, but the fact remains that if you're trying to get through something without SF, you're probably gimping yourself. It's like saying that you have a choice whether or not to equip armor or a max damage weapon; yeah, you technically do, but it's not really a choice if one option is clearly better than the other.

Furthermore, the fact that permas have existed for so long kills any notion of PvE balance that the game had previously been held to. Why was Ursanway killed, just to be replaced by something even easier to play and harder to fail with? As long as SF exists in its present state, every other nerf that was aimed at some build in PvE just looks silly.

Why, after all this time, people still think that all the hate directed at SF is the result of jealousy or spite or something along those lines, I can't fathom. Sorry, it's just not true; people hate permas because they make a mockery of all of the lauded gameplay mechanics and intricate balancing systems that make GW such a great game.

Btw, this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Did anyone ever stop to think that the dominance of SF in high end areas was planned out by ANet as a reward to Sin players who put up with all the crap they got from 99% of the GW elitist playerbase claiming they were narutards?

Personally, SF is the reward for sticking with a class that has been marginalized since Factions came out. My Sin is 42 months old lol. Its only since EOTN came out, and more pronounced, the Ursan nerf, that Sins, specifically Permasins have been so in vogue and useful.

Its kind of nice to flip the bird to all the wammos, prot monks and Searing Flames eles that wouldn't take a Sin into DoA/Deep/Urgoz/FoW/UW etc. etc. if their lives depended on it, and now its as if these areas CAN'T be done without a Sin.

has got to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard anyone say in relation to the SF issue, plain and simple.

Without even touching the mountain of idiocy it takes to think that ANet would overpower a class specifically because the majority of sins were outright f****ing morons who played like they were wammos when Factions came out, how in the hell is buffing SF a reward to "long-time sins" who "put up with" all that crap? It's not like they prevented everyone from rolling a sin after GW:EN came out!

Tom Swift · Dec 09, 2009, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

Btw, this:

has got to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard anyone say in relation to the SF issue, plain and simple.

Not entirely true. While I doubt it was a "reward" for playing sins, the sin was kind of a broken class from the beginning - neither caster nor melee. Although I enjoyed playing them, no one really wanted them in a group until perma SF came along. That's just one more game design flaw SF covered.

So, yes, I do think perma SF being unbalanced was intentional, as an easy way of hiding how broken the sin class is, and the fact it has taken them so long to do anything about it is pretty good evidence of that.

Skyy High · Dec 09, 2009, 04:52 AM // 04:52

A decent DB+MS sin that didn't kill himself was always welcome in a group. It just so happened that idiot sins were both abundant and suicidal. There really wasn't anything particularly wrong with the sin in PvE when Factions was released, except that, like I said, the vast majority of sins thought they were just a cooler looking warrior. Oh, and everyone made a sin as soon as Factions came out; 5-8 sin parties were pretty frequent just because people needed to get through the missions somehow. Those are the reasons why people didn't add your assassin all that often, not because the class itself was "broken". The notion that ANet consciously put in 3 skills in separate expansions that, combined, would allow sins to be nigh-unkillable tanks so they would finally be accepted into groups falls flat in the face of Occam's Razor: ANet simply didn't see the interaction between GoS and SF, combined with DH.

coil · Dec 09, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

I hardly play the game any more. I just assert that the game is massively compromised by this bad skill. It's no skin off my nose of they keep it or nerf it. It's just sad that such a great game is so heavily neglected for so long.

Surely nobody can claim that SF isn't a problem?

lol so you don't play the game but are certain that 1 skill is destroying it and you don't really care whatever the outcome? gg. have fun with your trolling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

The thing is, SF is the best way to do 90% of the high end content in the game, and little else comes close. By "the best" I obviously am not talking about what organized guilds can use to blaze through dungeons quickly, I'm talking about its ability to just get through a theoretically difficult dungeon with little to no danger of failure once you've mastered the build, which should take you all of an hour if you're slow. Its power is far out of line with the skill necessary to play it, and in order to meet or match it with pretty much any other build you need to be at the top of your game, and it'll probably still be more difficult than just using SF.

That is the problem; in a game so based around skill choice and builds, to have one build, usable by one class, be so much better than everything else is completely against what GW is supposed to be about. Yes, the existence of SF doesn't nuke every other class directly, but the fact remains that if you're trying to get through something without SF, you're probably gimping yourself. It's like saying that you have a choice whether or not to equip armor or a max damage weapon; yeah, you technically do, but it's not really a choice if one option is clearly better than the other.

take out sf, another team build will reign supreme in terms of speed and efficiency.

so your point of current meta defeating the purpose of the game is kinda a paradox no? take pvp as an example of "balanced" gameplay. you see little variation in general team builds at the high end, right? some skills are completely ignored. so are they "not playing the game correctly" even if they're steamrolling other guilds with a "proven" (wiki/meta) build?

Tenebrae · Dec 09, 2009, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

lol so you don't play the game but are certain that 1 skill is destroying it and you don't really care whatever the outcome? gg. have fun with your trolling.

Its called "perspective" , some ppl have it , some ( like you ) dont.

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

take out sf, another team build will reign supreme in terms of speed and efficiency.

Yeah and "so many ppl quit the game if they nerf SF" . I can asure you 2 things :
-No , that wont happen.
-No , nothing will get near SF in terms of speed , efficiency and places to farm.

PS: Still smell the fear in this thread. Farmers QQ wont do nothing for the incoming skill rework.

Daesu · Dec 09, 2009, 08:34 AM // 08:34

I knew UW is going to be destroyed sooner and later just like the elite ghost town, Mr. DoA. This is starting to go through a very similar cycle to Ursan's nerf.

Like DoA, UW would still be possible to clear with an organized guild team, just not very puggable. Otherwise, it wouldn't be the ghost town that it is today.

Horace Slughorn · Dec 09, 2009, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Its called "perspective" , some ppl have it , some ( like you ) dont.

Yeah and "so many ppl quit the game if they nerf SF" . I can asure you 2 things :
-No , that wont happen.
-No , nothing will get near SF in terms of speed , efficiency and places to farm.

PS: Still smell the fear in this thread. Farmers QQ wont do nothing for the incoming skill rework.

Man you are going to be just as bad at the game, and broke after they nerf SF so I'm not sure why you take so much delight in it. I guess misery loves company.

Edit: I can see from your previous posts that you bought a crappy DoA green that I've left on the ground probably 50 times. You obviously have no idea how tough it would be without strong pve skills and a co-ordinated spike team.

UnChosen · Dec 09, 2009, 09:32 AM // 09:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Its called "perspective" , some ppl have it , some ( like you ) dont.

Yeah and "so many ppl quit the game if they nerf SF" . I can asure you 2 things :
-No , that wont happen.
-No , nothing will get near SF in terms of speed , efficiency and places to farm.

PS: Still smell the fear in this thread. Farmers QQ wont do nothing for the incoming skill rework.

Unless you have ANET server data, that statement is as credible as saying "I saw a pig fly". One thing is certain though, every area in the game is empty except for ToA and solo farming outposts...

With all the effort they spent nerfing skills they could have made at least one area more appealing. I actually do hate UWSC...why? Because its the only area where I can do stuff with actual people when guildies are not around. Adjust the areas so we can have some diversity please...

Screw it, they can nerf all they want....just gimme 7 heroes with PvE skills enabled so that I can actually do something fun when I log on at 10pm and find that not enough "leet" people are on. (And no, I don't think I want to vanquish or repeat all the "non-leet" missions for the 9th time with AI, 8 times is enough tyvm)

Axeman002 · Dec 09, 2009, 09:51 AM // 09:51

having read thru this post and my own...if SF does get nerfed im gonna move to Aion for something fresh to do...if not ill stay and enjoy guildwars (by the time GW2 is released i will have spent the same as i did when i bought GW on Aion P2P)....so as it stands bye bye guildwars lol

dont get me wrong GW is a good game but im not sticking in balanced groups for 2-3 hours when i know it can be done in 45 minutes +/- and with the end of GW1 approaching Anet should just leave people to do what they find enjoyable...if you like balanced...good go do it whoopie doo...if i dont, who cares let me enjoy it, broken/godmode/shitway whatever u wanna call it its fun and all that this wrinkly game has left for me.

UnChosen · Dec 09, 2009, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axeman002

having read thru this post and my own...if SF does get nerfed im gonna move to Aion for something fresh to do...if not ill stay and enjoy guildwars (by the time GW2 is released i will have spent the same as i did when i bought GW on Aion P2P)....so as it stands bye bye guildwars lol

dont get me wrong GW is a good game but im not sticking in balanced groups for 2-3 hours when i know it can be done in 45 minutes +/- and with the end of GW1 approaching Anet should just leave people to do what they find enjoyable...if you like balanced...good go do it whoopie doo...if i dont, who cares let me enjoy it, broken/godmode/shitway whatever u wanna call it its fun and all that this wrinkly game has left for me.

Even though I agree with you...when people make these kinds of post they really need to explain it in more detail. Why is 2-3hr balanced group bad? Answer: the reward is ridiculously minimal, and one tiny mistake boot you out and leave you with almost nothing except 2-3hrs of wasted time.

Stuff like that.
Otherwise, you just get people repeating catch phrases like "evil farmer should leave" and "evil farmer won't leave", and the real problem doesn't get through to Anet at all.

Axeman002 · Dec 09, 2009, 10:23 AM // 10:23

yeah sry...that is the main thing...2-3 hours for 2 diamonds = pissed off ...oh and apparently 'satisfaction' lol

upier · Dec 09, 2009, 10:35 AM // 10:35

So, how many of us would actually be bitching about the crap in this game had GW had enough content for us to not have to resort to farming?

Shanaeri Rynale · Dec 09, 2009, 10:49 AM // 10:49

I think lots of people would Upier. Arguments about profession discrimination and 'lame buids' were going on even when prophecies was new. Anyone remember how hard it was to go to UW/FoW as a mesmer back in 2005?

So long as people know what they are facing build wise there will always be builds and professions that will be easier/faster to use than others. When SF goes, people will just find the next PvXwiki build that works, then when that build is nerfed they'll choose the next one.

The history of GW has just been about the majority hopping from fotm to fotm. The root of this is the GW skill system which although it IS an amazing strength, when it is predictable and static is also a great weakness.

As I said a while earlier, the computer always rolls 'scissors' so all you need to do is take along 'rock' every time and it's the win button. It does'nt matter if your rock is called Ursan, 600 smite or Shadowform it will always beat 'scissors'. If you want true challenge and being able to play to the strengths of the GW skill system you need to be able to face 'rock, 'paper' or 'scissors' at random or if it's in a mob all of them.

Instead of doing this, the solution Anet came up with was, for the player to be able to roll a new item.. Lets call it 'zap' in which 'zap' beats rock, paper and scissors. In creating 'zap' Anet destroyed the balance of PvE and therefore of every area of the game.

Nerfing Shadow Form only gets rid of one 'zap' there are plenty of other waiting in the wings. To rebalance PvE then 'zap' needs to be removed entirerly. But this is never going to happen. People have become too dependant on runnning around with the GW equivilent of an infinite ammo BFG9000 and it would take too much effort to fix.

The only thnig we can really do is either refuse to roll 'zap' or accept that the game has irrevocably changed from the one we played from 2005-2007.

What Anet needs to do for GW2 is to ensure the same mistakes are not repeated, and this 'computer always rolls scissors' aspect is never repeated.

Horace Slughorn · Dec 09, 2009, 10:50 AM // 10:50

mm I see what you mean Upier, but considering ive logged over 9k hours, that would have to be A LOT of freakin content lol

mrvrod · Dec 09, 2009, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Why is it, any time a skill comes along that lets the ordinary, weekend player access elite areas, the cry come up from all the 10hr a day players to get rid of that skill? That skill that, by the way, has been abused by the same elitists for months upon months for speed clears, and ecto farming.

So anet changed UW to stop the speed clears, fine. But that's not enough for the elitist crowd. No, we must purge all the noobs from our lands! If you refuse to dedicate your lives to this game, we will nerf you out of it! Begone Ursan! Begone Shadow Form! Begone Discord! The Ectos and BDS's and VSF's belong to US!!! You haven't put enough time into this game to deserve such riches!

As a dedicated anet sheep, I'll probably keep playing GW. I will probably still buy GW2. But if I'm ever tempted to leave, it will be the elitist attitude that forces me out, and not the game. Flame all you want, I really don't care anymore. I've finally learned the whiners get their way, and the rest of us must cope.

Kaleban · Dec 09, 2009, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

The thing is, SF is the best way to do 90% of the high end content in the game, and little else comes close. By "the best" I obviously am not talking about what organized guilds can use to blaze through dungeons quickly, I'm talking about its ability to just get through a theoretically difficult dungeon with little to no danger of failure once you've mastered the build, which should take you all of an hour if you're slow. Its power is far out of line with the skill necessary to play it, and in order to meet or match it with pretty much any other build you need to be at the top of your game, and it'll probably still be more difficult than just using SF.

And how is this situation different from any point in time in the lifetime of Guild Wars? There has ALWAYS been a meta, where some builds are always more effective than others. Juts because SF is the "big deal" right now doesn't mean that something else won't replace it if and when it is nerfed. Why is there so much hate @SF when you've got things like rediculously OP PvE skills, triple monk bonder heros, consets etc. The idea of GW as "rock paper scissors" in PvE was thrown out the window woth Heros and customizable skill bars. No longer could ANet balance an area around one player's wild card skillbar and the known quality of hench skills.

Quote:

That is the problem; in a game so based around skill choice and builds, to have one build, usable by one class, be so much better than everything else is completely against what GW is supposed to be about. Yes, the existence of SF doesn't nuke every other class directly, but the fact remains that if you're trying to get through something without SF, you're probably gimping yourself. It's like saying that you have a choice whether or not to equip armor or a max damage weapon; yeah, you technically do, but it's not really a choice if one option is clearly better than the other.

55 Monk, 600/Smite, OB tank (War/Ele/Derv), 330 Rit, Spirit Spammers, etc., etc. The list goes on and on. Sf is part of this thing called a meta, you may have heard of it. According to your logic, every single person in GW right now should be playing Sins, as it is the best option, yet this is far from reality. I wonder why?

Quote:

Furthermore, the fact that permas have existed for so long kills any notion of PvE balance that the game had previously been held to. Why was Ursanway killed, just to be replaced by something even easier to play and harder to fail with? As long as SF exists in its present state, every other nerf that was aimed at some build in PvE just looks silly.

Perma existed before Ursan was nerfed, yet many people chose Ursan over it. Why? Because any class could use and abuse it. When that was nerfed, people went for the next best thing, rolling Sins where they previously had not. If SF gets nerfed, everyone will roll something else and the cycle will continue. Getting bent out of shape over one skill is kind of retarded.

Quote:

Why, after all this time, people still think that all the hate directed at SF is the result of jealousy or spite or something along those lines, I can't fathom. Sorry, it's just not true; people hate permas because they make a mockery of all of the lauded gameplay mechanics and intricate balancing systems that make GW such a great game.

I lol'd. "Intricate balancing systems?" If what you claim is true, then the ONLY meta build would be Sins, and everything else would be in perfect harmonious balance. People hate permas because they either don't have one or are too lazy to start one. There's multiple character slots, and for people that play mostly PvE, that means multiple primary professions, enabling players to work with the FotM builds and within the meta. The fact that there are multiple options makes the case for SF nerfing even more dubious, and I have to question a person' arguments against SF entirely. It doesn't "ruin the economy," speedclears existed well before perma-SF, etc., etc. The only logical rationale to hate perma is out of jealousy or envy, not out of some chivalric notion of balance for all! LOL.

Quote:

Btw, this:

has got to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard anyone say in relation to the SF issue, plain and simple.

Without even touching the mountain of idiocy it takes to think that ANet would overpower a class specifically because the majority of sins were outright f****ing morons who played like they were wammos when Factions came out, how in the hell is buffing SF a reward to "long-time sins" who "put up with" all that crap? It's not like they prevented everyone from rolling a sin after GW:EN came out!

Perhaps you immune to subtle sarcasm, but I am somewhat serious. I don't see Glyph of Swiftness used in hardly any PvE or PvP builds, except Perma. Its been around long enough now that if it was an issue to ANet, they could have fixed it rather easily.

While I don't think that ANet was literally throwing a shower of presents on Sin players with SF, it does stand to reason that they wanted to give Sins at least ONE build that could get them into high end PvE groups. The truth of the matter is that many early Sin players WERE wammos and narutards and gave the class a bad rep, which in turn made the class about as attractive as the plague in high end PvE.

Whether you all like it or not, SF happened. While I make no claims of a mass exodus if SF is nerfed, there will be some poor feedback. Is it fair in a game with 10 base professions to allow one of them to basically be unused? Why even make content for it? And to be honest, you have to admit in situations such as when DoA first was released (prior to EOTN and Ursan) that pretty much only wars eles and monks got into parties, with experienced guild players sometimes subbing in a Dervish Obsidian tank.

Is it truly the skill that is unbalanced, or is it areas that are so unbalanced that only 1/3 of the game's professions can play in it? I would hope for GW2's sake that ANet gets a better grasp on balancing of gameplay, and especially ignore Guru idiots who think that one skill is somehow breaking a game that I can log into at any moment and play just fine. With or without SF...

In an effort to mend the bridges and introduce some positive feedback, there might be an easy way to balance SF. Instead of nerfing it to hell, make it necessary to party with people for support, hero or otherwise. Easiest way to do that is to make SF cause -1 or -2 energy degen, so over time (say 3 maybe 4 cycles) the Perma would be unable to maintain without some form of energy regen, like BiP, which would require either a Necro player or microing a Necro hero, just like the 600/Smite teams in concept. Whereas 600/Smite requires a second guy for damage, the Perma would require a second guy for energy regen. Similar concept, different execution. And its much more elegant a solution than all the whiny Wammo QQers saying to nerf SF to hell and good riddance Sin players hahalolz.

Keep perma in, make it party dependent, and you allow Sins to play in groups that aren't just hero/hench.

upier · Dec 09, 2009, 11:14 AM // 11:14

The problem is that as long as A.Net pumped out new content, one could just play the game. But now, we are just stuck with what we have and that is a game that is FILLED with grind. And given how the game shifted from being able to have every character into the need to just have one character because otherwise you'll have massive issues maxing out titles each class needs to be able to grind.
Balance in PvE currently isn't about each class finding a role.
Balance in PvE is currently about each class being able to farm.

And as long as this issue isn't looked at, we are going to have SF 2.0 (or is that Ursan 3.0?) in 6 months.

UnChosen · Dec 09, 2009, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

In an effort to mend the bridges and introduce some positive feedback, there might be an easy way to balance SF. Instead of nerfing it to hell, make it necessary to party with people for support, hero or otherwise. Easiest way to do that is to make SF cause -1 or -2 energy degen, so over time (say 3 maybe 4 cycles) the Perma would be unable to maintain without some form of energy regen, like BiP, which would require either a Necro player or microing a Necro hero, just like the 600/Smite teams in concept. Whereas 600/Smite requires a second guy for damage, the Perma would require a second guy for energy regen. Similar concept, different execution. And its much more elegant a solution than all the whiny Wammo QQers saying to nerf SF to hell and good riddance Sin players hahalolz.

Keep perma in, make it party dependent, and you allow Sins to play in groups that aren't just hero/hench.

Another way to do it is to make its effect like a paragon shout. Have the duration increase for every party member "within earshot", allowing it to be easily maintainable when all 8 party members are around but unmaintainable when the party is too split or when everyone else starts to die. This make it pug friendly but cannot be used as a "solo machine", so to speak.

But it still won't correct the core problem which is the risk/reward imbalances.

Shanaeri Rynale · Dec 09, 2009, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Thats not elitist, thats called game play progression. When you buy a single player game, do they give you the super weapon on the first level, the best armor or the best car? No. you need to earn it by beating levels, earning money to buy the car etc etc.

In a single player game, using a cheat code does'nt hurt anyone. It allows you to get the best gun, car,armor etc very quickly.

In an MMO an imbalanced skill or abilty 'Rolling zap' is a bad thing.. Why?

Because it affects everyone else playing the game, it upsets the 'game play progression' designed into the game. It puts pressure on other players to 'roll zap', it puts pressure on the developers to make new content because all of sudden people are burning through content ten times faster than it was designed to be played at.

Ok lets take an example. Modern Warfare 2.
Would using a cheat code to zoom to online rank 70 be acceptable?

No. we would call it cheating, and expect EA to fix the exploit.

Now to GW.
is it acceptable for a player to be able to zoom from lvl 1 to having done everything in a weeks?

Was GW designed to be able to do that? I would argue no it was'nt.

The risk/reward thing is only an issue because players were allowed to roll 'zap' had they never been allowed to the issue would never have arisen as the only way to get the reward was to put the same risk in as everyone else.

Instead of fixing it, Anet has ignored it and by ingoring it given it the facade of being acceptable and by giving it tacit approval allowed the playerbase to become dependant on it.

I think and yes I know it may be judgemental, but a lot of people are applying single player game thinking (cheat modes to speed past content is ok) to an MMO. Which you cant do.

It's not the players fault, it's not the likes of the pro SF'res on this threat that should be accused of being a 'noob' the fault squarely lies at the feet of Anet who have by neglect totally trashed the PvE side of this game.

It's not about a look at us.. For me it's a concern about the health and longevity of a game I enjoy playing and one I still want to be able to enjoy until GW2.

Turbo Ginsu · Dec 09, 2009, 11:34 AM // 11:34

This is the issue. These 2 pictures, of the Dungeon run my partner and I did together in Shards of Orr(HM). Although I've mentioned it in another post, well, seeing is believing.

This is what the purists would have you find a good group, or group of guildies, grind for a couple hours, waste a bunch of cons, dp removers etc etc, to earn.

Tell me if you can see anything wrong with these 2 Hard Mode reward pictures.

My Wifes Great Reward:

My own, equally spectacular Reward:

Now, as I said, study them well and see if you can find the kick in the teeth in there.